Balance Suggestions

Discussion in 'Support and Suggestions' started by Unbegabt, Mar 21, 2018.

is SBP balanced? (10=totally balanced, 1 = totally unbalanced

Poll closed Mar 31, 2018.
  1. 1 extremely unbalanced

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 2

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. 3

    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  4. 4

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  5. 5

    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  6. 6

    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  7. 7

    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  8. 8

    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  9. 9

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 10 = extremely balanced

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Windoze

    Windoze Last Prism Contributor Last Prism Contributor

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    I get what you're saying, but at the same time I think there is a ton we can do within the limitations.

    Classes like Angel/Arch Angel have players that burn out fast and rarely continue to arch angel. BUT, were told all the time we need classes like archangels to heal and beat certain bosses. Right now, no one wants to really play them.

    If the player thought they were getting rewarded and making progress sufficiently, they'd play the class. The way they are set up right now is not a fun grind from the looks of it. Even though they get some experience for healing, they are still left to contend with the DPS meta for a portion of their experience. If what ArchAngels have is too OP now, then tone those down and give them more overall so they can get the xp from doin stuff.

    One possible solution within Terraria' and SBPlanets limitations would be to turn the EXP gained from healing up by a considerable amount. Make the player feel like they can make some real progress. To prevent spamming spells for XP, put them on a long cool down and have them give bigger XP chunks. Use the class cweps to provide additional utility to be able to cast more spells than they through swinging the cwep (ex. to provide more ways to earn enough XP through healing and being active) because healing can be boring, so it has to be made worth doin - and then all the players win cause theres finally heals. You could give them more utility/stuff to do all the time (lower heals, shorter buffs, longevity, w/e) instead of just focusing on the AW CRAP HEAL MEH moments.

    (EX: Archangel Rank X heal gives 25,000 experience and has a 830s+ cooldown. At Rank 3 they need over 200mil to level. Eep.)

    Then give the class some abilities like invulnerability, in which they can get in the nitty gritty with the tank and toss him some serious heals because as it is right now, an Angel tryin to heal next to the tank in EX. the boss party - might be dead meat? (Or maybe not? I havent really seen angels enough to know, but I have had some fun with what they got so far on my experimental. They just need a lil more to keep people playin.) Since their spells are full right now, but reworkin some custom weapons that can trigger heals/whatever in this manner would be a much welcome upgrade (for everyone because we actually have healers that play and not grind up levels to win seasonal). This would not only provide the class with the EXP they feel like they really should be getting to keep people playing more in the first place. ((Or at least reward healers more so we can do stuff that requires them for content because we don't have an active archangel like that right now.) This gives the class enough to do to keep busy, have more fun, provides the class with some more spells they can use and work with (which is what a healer really needs to have fun) and kick some butt with the DPS.

    This is just an idea I came up with on the fly, but it could work. Just having some fun here.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
  2. Bladed Waifu

    Bladed Waifu Moderator Moderator

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    more like Angels must be like Angels, amirite?
     
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  3. Windoze

    Windoze Last Prism Contributor Last Prism Contributor

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    WARNING: I just woke up, and this is sloppy. Forgive me! Criticism is welcome, I am just having fun. I used my Experimental character to get the XP amounts and cooldown times.

    Foreward
    I am not dissing anyone or the people who created there. I really dig this game and give mad props to the work done so far. Just makin a move to get more angels playing.

    I (quickly) ran the numbers to get an idea of what Angels and ArchAngels earned in the healing/EXP department. I did not include EXP earned from DPS, but I do know that if they aren’t alone they’re potentially competing with some seriously heavy contenders.

    I started with Angel then went to ArchAngel.

    Some of these numbers may be slightly off, if anyone wants to correct me they are welcome. They can’t be that far off though. I was generous with rounding up in the EXP department. At most, the end XP earned per Rank 9-10 And and 1-2 Arch would be off by ~100k (and even if it was, at Arch1 for XP TNL. example - it doesn’t make a dent,

    ex. Arch1 earning XP from Arch1-10 abilities cast as many times possible 600s. Doing this however would interfere with the potentially better XP earned from DPS. (Which I infer is far better after running these numbers.)

    The Breakdown
    • Spells not listed give no experience when used (or are permabufffs)
    • TNL = EXP needed till next lvl
    • Summoner experience earned through spells cast is but a small dent. I didn’t included it.
    • I broke this down into a 600 second period (10 minutes).
    • I assumed the healer had all spells up ArchAngel Rank X and casted all healing spells that give experience on cooldown perfectly.

    ANGELS SPELLS AND EXPERIENCE
    The following Angel spells give the following XP rewards when cast.
    • Angel 1 - 500xp - 180sec cool down
    • Ang2 - 50XP - 7sec cooldown
    • Ang4 - ~90ishXP - 6sec cd
    • Ang5 - 500xp - 119s CD
    • Ang8 - 500xp - 7sec cd
    • Ang9 - Recall to Cloudshire (At this point, esp w this class thus far, this is a bummer to get when a portal only costs 1k shards or a flying mount and /spawn)
    • Ang10 - 5k XP, 600s CD
    If a Rank X Angel cast their spells that gave XP perfectly on cooldown every 600s they will earn...
    • Ang2 43k per 600s
    • Ang4 - 8k (7740)
    • Ang5 - 2.5k
    • Ang8 - 42.5k
    • Ang10 - 5k
    • Total = 101,000 XP per 10min.
    To get from level 9 to 10 healing, it would take 316 hours on healing alone. Casting on cooldown will interfere with doing any decent damage if competingel.

    ArchAngel (XP per cast.)
    * = rounded up

    • Rank I - 120mil TNL - arch1 No XP- 239s CD
    • Rank II - 200mil TNL - Arch2 - under 1k.*- 7.2S CD
    • Arch4 - 2.5k XP - 180s CD
    • Arch6 - 10k XP - 600s CD
    • Arch8 - under 1kXP* - 7.4s CD
    • Arch10 - 25k XP - 292s CD
    Every 600seconds, with rounding the under 1k XP earned per cast to 1k, and casting every spell that gives EXP on cool down (even the 7sec CD spells), An ArchAngel would earn the following XP from healing every 600s.
    • Arch2 - 83k
    • Arch4 - 7.5k
    • Arch6 - 10k
    • Arch8 - 83k
    • Arch10 - 50k
    • Total - 233,500 (a generous rounding up) and a grand total of 1,401,000 XP per hour from casting spells.(
      • If an Arch1 had access to Arch10 spells)
    To earn ArchAngel Rank2 using all AA spells on CD it would take ~85 hours to level healing this way.

    With all Angel and AA XP spells cast on CD they would earn 1,502,000 every hour. An AA needing 2bil to get AA RX would need to heal on CD for a little more than 1,340 hours.

    Quick Conclusion
    The XP totals here aren't realistic because I gave ArchAngels Rank I spells from AA I through X and XP from using 1-10 abilities. It also isn't fathomable to cast 7sec cooldowns perfectly every 600s interval. The XP earned from healing is borderline non-consequential at the big Master lvl numbers, so any smart Angel/ArchAngel would do everything they could to deal absolutely as much damage as possible and cast the big XP spells on cool down to maximize on XP earned per hour. In addition, earning XP would be seriously hampered by casting a spell every 7 seconds. Even if this is off by a little, it’s a lot, so at the very least the class needs a rework in the Xp earned per heal department.

    Footnote
    I usually am a lot cleaner/more precise but I had some time to kill. I would love to see more people playin Angels and ArchAngels, so I figured I would contribute in any way I can.

    **Edited**
    Edited to make shorter and to the point. If you feel like reading more than read the earlier edits. Most recent fixed some wordin etc.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
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  4. nick12345

    nick12345 Moderator Moderator Last Prism Contributor

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    But the problem with this it that your assuming that angels are solely use commands to level up. Thats not going to happen angels also have cweps which means they have other sources of exp besides commands. to me i feel that the angel commands a balanced and are fine...

    And besides using commands to level defeats the whole purpose of the server...
     
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  5. Windoze

    Windoze Last Prism Contributor Last Prism Contributor

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    I never played an angel, and I did not test their cweps. I only looked at their healing and what they would earn from only healing in a world where they could get perfect exp/hr from only healing and casting every xp spell on cooldown.I also ran numbers as an AA Rank I getting XP from having all AA I-X spells in addition to Angel I-X.


    I totally agree that a class shouldn’t Ievel off commands like that. That would be no good. I did this because I was lookin for ways the class could potentially receive a boost and help get some more people playing this class as a main to do events


    I concluded that the class could receive a significant boost in XP earned from healing to improve their XP/hr ratio and allow the angels to be able to reduce their dedication to maximum DPS as the most efficient way to level because at those numbers, healing XP barely makes a dent in current XP/TNL requirements and at current levels could interfere with earning the maximum potential XP/hour
     
  6. Windoze

    Windoze Last Prism Contributor Last Prism Contributor

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    I suppose my end goal was to analyze if its really even worth healing if theyre looking for XP, or if serious healing is really just meant for bigger events instead of something like a ML XP boss party (which I understand if that is the case).

    Therefore, I thought something like improving XP earned from current healing skills could be increased in order to provide the class with more XP/HR to help get/keep people playing while avoiding making the class super OP via something like making cweapons stronger to give them an improved leveling abilities. (and I am fully aware that this is not something yall would consider to improve things.)

    EDIT: Wording/making it read better
     
  7. Bladed Waifu

    Bladed Waifu Moderator Moderator

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    AAs can damage enemies too with smite-y cweps?
     
  8. Lunarium

    Lunarium Blue Slime

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    Hey there. I love discussion on balance and other stuff so here I am. Im a scarra fan if you all know who he is (a League of Legends streamer and player who is quite smart at deducing and analyzing the game). I've taken that kind of analyzing into every game I play now.

    As I said in my introduction, I am a Terraria veteran. I've been playing this game since shortly after its release. There were days when Expert mode didn't exist, when end game was Mechs, when end game was WoF. I've played several RPG servers like SBPas well as Creative servers, Kit-PvP and CTF servers. Here's what I've noticed since joining SBP.



    1.What is balance in SBP for you?

    SBP balanced is obviously not up to me, and I'm not sure how much the Dev/Balance team takes opinions of players into account, hopefully they do because in every server I've played on where suggestions are taken into serious account, the server has always turned out more balanced and fun.

    As an RPG server there are a few aspects that must be fine tuned:
    -Class Balance
    -Item Gain Balance
    -EXP Gain Balance (the leveling system ties into this)
    -Quality of Life (How easy it is to start out, learn about the server, getting around the world. Just all the quality of life aspects should be increased to make less people burn out in a grinding RPG server.)


    These 4 categories are probably the most important. There are others but I haven't seen much significance in them since I joined.

    Class Balance:
    This means that each and every class should have its varied strengths and content and there should be no reason one class should be blatantly better than the other. Each class should be fun and interactive, enticing players to be satisfied with their pick of class. SBP hasn't quite done this, its close however.

    Examples of this in SBP:

    -Marksman is blatantly better than Hunter. (Note, I can not say the difference in Zephyr and Sharpshooter, as I have not seen much of either.
    -Knight is blatantly better than Assassin. (From what I've seen, not much changes between Commander and Reaper.)
    -Wizard is only slightly better than Savant. (Wizard gets more DPS overall and while usually the class with lower DPS usually gets a tradeoff of extra utility or tank stats, I have not seen that with Savant. Note: I cannot say the difference in Arcana and Spellbinder, as I have not seen much of Spellbinder, Arcana looks super strong tho xd.)
    -Happily to say, I think Warden and Angel are in the most healthy state right now, however I think Warden is better, I'll get into that next. (Warden has DPS, Angel has niche support skills and healing.)


    The Best and Worst Classes:
    Now, I don't know what SBP's standard power level is for classes, if they want to buff everything weak up, nerf everything OP down, or a little of both. (IMO I would do small fine tune buffs to the weak classes until weak classes are fine, that way no one gets angry at nerfs, and you don't buff those weak classes to much where they surpass the strong ones, and then have a cycle of infinite buffs.)

    The top classes right now (this is excluding Chaosborn as it does not have a mastery.)

    -Knight and Commander: This class is obviously good. When the main source of EXP gain once you hit Ascension 7 (when you need 8 mil EXP) is bosses or boss parties, the ability to not only tank these bosses, but solo them, this class gets automatic points. If your class can't solo bosses by Ascension 7, Knight's are the key to your leveling, so make sure to make friends with one lol. I was lucky enough to meet Ahiru, and she was willing to set up boss parties with me, and play along with me. I've had quite a bit more fun because of this. Not only we've leveled cause of this though. Cosmostar went from Warden IV to Curator I in a little less than a week because of these parties. Saye went from Wizard III to Wizard IX. I got my Chromatician from II to IX. Rax got Arcana IV xd (EXP sponge smh). Among many other people leveling. Knight is just an absolute needed and strong class in SBP.

    -Marksman and Sharpshooter: I'd say that this is the #1 best class in SBP. It just overall has everything. As it is the Ranger, its DPS is automatically very high. With the addition of cweps, its even more. And with the addition to the Create Pouches, it has all the utility and wave clear it needs. It has Snowman Cannon Rockets giving it a good time in wave events and normal mobs. It has Vampire Pouch, with enough kiting practice you can solo Twins. It doesn't require mana like the Mage classes, and has infinite ammo. This class just has no downside other than the fact it cannot straight up tank.

    The worst classes right now (also excluding Chaosborn)

    -Assassin and Reaper: The damage oriented ascension of Warrior right? Well it should be. Assassin and Reaper gets less to similar DPS as Knight and Commander without being able to tank. This makes the class obsolete. Not much else to say. Its kit looks fun to play though, if it had the DPS. Just buff this class.

    -Angel and Archangel (Until you hit Archangel 3): I'm by no means saying Angel is a bad class, however theres problems with it. Angel is supposed to be a Support class, but it has trouble Supporting. Assuming you've hit Ascension 7 and are doing boss parties to level, with lots of others, theres two problems. First is Angel is not tanky enough to be down with the Knight or Commander and support them with Nebula's and the Ang1 heal. So where are you forced to go? Up top where all the other people are safely shooting down. Thats the key word, safely. The best you're giving those people up top is damage wisps, allowing them to get more DPS. But thats a problem when YOU yourself are trying to leveling. You're giving these Marksmen and Wizards and Chromatician's 45% damage, and they'll be getting tons of DPS equalling tons of EXP. Angel has actually zero DPS. It took me 1/4 the in game playing time to go from Chaosborn 1 to Chromatician 9, than to go from Summoner 1 to Angel 9. This is a problem. Even if its a Support class, its leveling should not be hindered, thats a massive issue. I see that SBP has tried to counteract this by giving Angel and Summoner EXP gain for Nebula giving and Heals, but its simply minuscule in comparison to the millions and millions of EXP you need.

    My fix to this is a couple of things. First, giving Angel the ability to use Sorcerer Emblem. I understand why all its weapons are magic damage, so you don't become a Warden with support. As Angels weapons base damages are so low, Sorcerer Emblem wouldn't be too big of a buff to DPS. It'd still be terrible DPS wise, but every bit helps when it comes to EXP. This is fine tuning like I talked about.
    Secondly, changing its Angel 9 CWep. Here I was, newly Angel 9, thinking that this MYTHICAL Rainbow Rod, requiring luck and shards to get, was going to be somewhat good. I got it, used it and laughed a hell of a lot. The Angel 9 weapon (Spectrum) is debatably worse than the Summoner 10 weapon (Crystal Snow Staff). The only use I found for this weapon was placing the rainbows on the OOA portals. Even then, Starfish would have worked just as well. At Angel 9 you need 32 mil to X. Thats so ridiculously hard to get with this amount of DPS. Same with Archangel 1-2 and 2-3. You need 320 mil total, and your DPS is minimal. DPS = EXP gain remember. So seeing as Spectrum has little to no niche at all, changing it to something that will help Angel level would be a great quality of life buff.
    My idea was a Wasp Gun with increased base damage. Not too high cause obviously as its consistent, targeted damage, but higher than 20, where bosses have that much armor and more. Something like 70 base damage. 70 x 45% (Nebula Wisps) = 31 (rounded) 70 x 15% (Sorcerer Emblem) = 10
    Total damage = 111. Take into account a bosses defense and that drops a bit. This can obviously be changed depending on what SBP's balanced team thinks. 60 base damage, 65, whatever. That doesnt seem too OP does it? You'd probably get 2k-4k DPS on a single target depending on Ichor and Crits. Actually, maybe 60-65 base damage, seeing as wasps can cling to multiple enemies at once. This would give Angel 9 a well needed DPS buff to help it through Angel 9, Archangel 1 and 2 until you get that OP cwep at Archangel 3.
    Like Nick said, leveling through commands defeats the purpose of the game. I could propose more buffs to the EXP gain of those commands, but that seems actually no fun.

    Item Gain Balance: I think this category is pretty good in SBP, so good job :).

    EXP Gain Balance: Ok, another paragraph. I think the EXP from mobs is fine (SL Destroyer btw OMEGALUL) and the EXP jumps between levels is fine until you hit Ascension 7. I mention Ascension 7 a lot because I believe this is the turning point in the game, where grinding becomes most important. You can get from Ascension 6-7 (4 mil EXP) off of Dungeon grinding and Phantasmal Dragons without ripping your hair out. However once you hit 7 (8 mil to 8) those two tactics aren't very good. You need to do bosses or join boss parties. If your class does not have a reliable DPS source by Ascension 7, you will have a hard time leveling. Examples of this: Angel, Assassin, Knight even (But the other aspects of Knight make it just fine, and seeing as you get Flashsword at 9.) From 8-9 and 9-10 is even harder. Thats why I proposed those buffs to Angel and Assassin.
    Also, the EXP jumps between Ascended 10 and all the Masteries seem really off. From 10 to Ascended is a x2 jump but from Ascended 10 to Mastery is a x4 jump :thinking:. As well as stuff like Mastery 3-4 and then 4-5. 250mil from 3-4 and then 400 mil to 4-5. Thats kinda nuts, when 1-2 was 120 mil and 2-3 was 200 mil. So yea maybe those jumps could use some fine tuning.

    Quality of Life Balance: Having the sbplanet.co/beta and sbplanet.co/market and having the discord contributes greatly in a positive way to this category. The community is a big part of an RPG server. However, I do think someone should be working harder on the sbplanet.co/beta. I look at it and a lot is outdated or not even put in yet. Someone with an Experimental character and dedication should take over. I would be willing, I love working on spreadsheets and such, however I do not have an Experimental character therefore can't know everything.

    Also, changing up Shadowlands. I understand its supposed to be dark and mysterious, but I can barely see LOL. Maybe just making the grass and trees black, something like that. Its also very bland. Theres only spawn, Andriel, and the Boss NPC's for manmade building. I'd like to see a little more buildings and such, so I can dive more into the exploration and RPG aspect of the server.

    2.What is the most important aspect of balance in SBP?

    Like I said before:
    As an RPG server there are a few aspects that must be fine tuned:
    -Class Balance [This includes all the damage types, defensive stats, and utility.]
    -Item Gain Balance (RNG btw OMEGALUL) [I think the Item Gain Balance is pretty good in SBP, good job.]
    -EXP Gain Balance (the leveling system ties into this) [I think a lot of fine tuning could be done with this.]
    -Quality of Life (How easy it is to start out, learn about the server, getting around the world. Just all the quality of life aspects should be increased to make less people burn out in a grinding RPG server. [Right now I'm getting hella burnt out of Angel so yea could use some help.]


    3.What parts/mechanics would you consider essential for the balance of the game?


    Well I think I just say the same thing as what I've been saying. xd.

    4. Do you consider SBP balanced?

    To a degree. They've done a great job, I love the server, however there are frustrating things and fine tuning that needs to be done. Looking forward to keep playing, meeting people, and seeing what's coming up next in patches.

    If you read all that, you are a true legend. Hope I sound somewhat smart and my thoughts make sense.

     
  9. Bladed Waifu

    Bladed Waifu Moderator Moderator

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    I add/suggest something good: Fetch Side-Quests. The ones that gives you EXP and some Shards in exchange of some items. Not just Trophies and stuff.

    That makes more RPG a RPG
     
  10. Planetera

    Planetera Luminite Contributor Luminite Contributor

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    Hi Sunny! I'm sorry everyone forgets who you are.

    But anyways that's what I was hoping for earlier when i used to play, like the halloween quests.
     
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  11. Raltz

    Raltz Mimic

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    I heard that with the right loadout archangel is really good. Hunter is harder to aim, for better dps if you hit everything (I think). Assassin is pretty bad though. Its a combination of dps and tank, but it doesn't have enough of each to be good. Shadowlands is ment to be mysterious and a place where not many people have gone to, so therefore it has less buildings. Savant is worse then wizard because it can "provide utility" through nebula fragments, but angels do that already AND angels get exp from nebulas. Wizards can heal more then angels can heal too. Sharpshooter is ok, but the highest sharpshooters have arcanum pouches, so they deal a ton of damage and won't miss. The reason wizard and marksman are better then their counterparts, are because they have abilities that can lock onto their target. Even if you deal a lot of damage, it won't matter if you don't hit the boss. That's why I think we should nerf the damage on classes that have projectiles that lock onto their targets, and buff classes that are harder to use.
     
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